Comments on: Romney & Ryan or Obama & Biden: Which America Do We Want?

By: Mark

Mark — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 13:58:00 +0000

Hmmm … I thought I did a pretty good job of focusing on the right wing of the Republican Party and the party’s leadership, and not on all Republicans. If not, I’ll try harder next time. As for your suggestion in the final paragraph, I’m totally open to it … somebody pick a topic!!

By: redheadranting

redheadranting — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:46:00 +0000

I wasn’t suggesting that people fail ONLY because they choose to do so, or don’t as the case may be. Some people work their asses off and through no fault of their own face nothing but failure. Conversely there are people like Miley Cyrus who have little talent and yet become huge successes (apologies to Miley, she can sort of act and sing a little, and she is cute but success was dropped in her lap. We don’t even know if she really wanted it so maybe it’s a curse to her?) The truth is shit happens (hope I can say that here) and sometimes people can’t get ahead no matter what. I can attest to that on many levels though it hasn’t been reason enough for me to stop trying.

I don’t know what kind of capitalism we have today compared to 15 years ago but I know that anyone can get ahead in this country if they work hard enough.

Now let me qualify that with this: Not everyone will be a success. No matter how hard people try some are not going to make it. And it isn’t fair. However, it is the belief that the individual can work hard and achieve success that makes this country work. It is American Exceptionalism that keeps the wheels turning. And I know we aren’t exceptional anymore. We aren’t the first in so many things it’s sad but self fulfilling prophecy is a powerful thing.

If you tell someone they can’t do it (and welfare sort of does that) they won’t. Hell, I’m eligible for all kinds of assistance, and there have been times where I have almost given up and gone for the assistance. I’ve struggled with this because it would be so easy to go to the county and apply aid. I’d get it. But if I did I know I wouldn’t work as hard as I do now (this space isn’t large enough to analyze that, but I have). Necessity, at least for me, is the mother of invention.

By: Kay Lynn Akers

Kay Lynn Akers — Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:48:00 +0000

I think Romney did make the choice easy for people with his pick of Ryan. It was surprising to me because I thought he would go for someone more moderate that would appeal to the swing voters.

Threatening to take away Medicare and play havoc with social security is not a way to win an election.

By: janegassner

janegassner — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 22:58:00 +0000

First–I’m lovin’ the dialogue. Welcome welcome welcome, Jennifer. Let’s talk about you taking your place opposite Mark on MidLifeBloggers. Your arguments deserve the full treatment, not just a comment.

The only part of your comment that I question is this: “Even if there were a way to make everyone come out of the womb with the same tools as everyone else there would be those who excelled and those who chose not to. So eventually the playing field would not be level because some would choose to be more successful. All things being fair. Fairness isn’t sustainable without pulling others down.”

Inherent in that is the assumption that people who fail do so because they choose not to excel and/or succeed. I wish that were so, but I know that it’s not. People don’t succeed for all sorts of reasons. Yes, some of it is class and race, but some of it has to do with the way in which our economic system has been manipulated. It isn’t the same capitalism that it was ten, fifteen, twenty years ago–and certainly not in our parents day.

And, Mark, you need to be more specific when you tar all Republicans with the same brush. That ain’t fair–or true, either. We all of us hold a multiplicity of viewpoints. I’m probably not the same Democrat that you are (Blue Dog? Yellow Dog? Spotted Dog???).

So maybe what we can do here is look at the specifics of each candidate’s discussion of a particular topic. Just one. Let’s deconstruct them and see where we agree, where we don’t and why not.

By: Shani Ferguson

Shani Ferguson — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 20:58:00 +0000

It’s not entirely accurate to call Social Security unsustainable. Lifting the cap on income subject to Social Security withholding would keep the program solvent for at least 75 years, all in one fell swoop.

And, historically, it’s been the Republicans who have enlarged government (while decrying the practice, and blaming Democrats).

Unfortunately, even Romney himself has been unwilling to discuss Ryan’s budget: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/13/1119589/-Romney-Ryan-budget-What-Ryan-budget

By: Mark

Mark — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:44:00 +0000

Jennifer … couple of quick comments. I made the comment about this being a clear choice because Republican candidates in the past were a little more moderate than Romney and Ryan. There was some recognition of government’s role and the need to find solutions within that. As near as I can tell, Romney and Ryan are a part of the extreme right wing that wants to wring everything there is out of government. That is the choice they are offering and it is much more dramatic than prior Republican presidential candidates in recent years.
Regarding the largeness of the Republican Party and there being different beliefs within the party membership … that may be true, but since 2008 and Obama’s election, the leadership of the party has been taken over by a bunch of incredibly angry, bitter people who believe their primary mission is to defeat Obama, rather than do to what is best for this country. In addition, the Tea Party and the right wing of the party has essentially eliminated from the leadership any voices of moderation. The party leadership is dominated by the extreme. I know plenty of Republicans — most of whom are incredibly unhappy with their party’s leadership and the direction they are taking their party. One, who has voted Republican her entire life for just about every office, will be voting for Obama this year.
Regarding your comment about Republicans wanting to do what they do with as little government intervention as possible … I’m pretty sure that describes everybody and not just Republicans.
Regarding class warfare … why is it OK for Republicans to attack the poor, to eliminate programs that help the middle class, etc., and that’s not class warfare? But, when you question the legitimacy of proposals put forward by Republicans that would eviscerate the safety net while providing yet more tax cuts to the wealthy (who are already paying less in taxes than they have in decades) that’s class warfare?
I agree … it’s impossible to make things “fair.” It’s an unfortunate choice of words on Obama’s part. What I’d like to see is this … when it comes to matters of jobs, economics, and security, we all do better if … we all do better. Republican policies are destroying the middle class and doing yet more damage to the poor, all while the profits of corporations hit new highs and the rich get richer and pay less in taxes. My middle class parents were able to send four kids to public university without borrowing a dime. I’m middle class as well … and I won’t be able to do the same thing for my two kids. There are plenty of examples like this. When the middle class is no more, or when it is so burdened by student loan debt, or when it isn’t educated and productive, who will buy the products produced by the corporations and the rich? Yes, I know, we’ll all have jobs building the walls higher for the well-off to protect them from the rest of us.

By: redheadranting

redheadranting — Mon, 13 Aug 2012 19:06:00 +0000

I’ll take the conservative position if you like. Let me first say by way of introduction that I consider myself a libertarian.

Secondly, Jane, thanks for opening your blog to this kind of discussion. I’ve yet to find a place on the internet where name calling doesn’t begin the thread so I’m hopeful it will be different here.

So let’s get going..

I completely agree that the choice is clear. No matter which side of the political spectrum you fall you probably have a good idea where you stand. The two candidates couldn’t be more diverse making the choice relatively clear unless you live under a rock and pay absolutely no attention to politics.

Having said that I disagree with Mr Paxson on his assessment of what the Republican, and Ryan and Romney, party believe.

Firstly, it’s a large party and there are probably some who do believe that it is every man, woman and child for themselves but most don’t. Most are more than happy to lend a hand or provide an opportunity, they just don’t want to be forced to do so by the government.

I can’t speak for anyone but myself but I know that most in the party just want to be able to do what they do with as little government intervention as possible.

To jump on the band wagon of class warfare by stating the republicans only want the rich to get richer is lazy. The thing about money and making it in our republic is that the pie doesn’t stay the same. The pie is not finite. The more we prosper the more pie there is. Republicans want prosperity and believe that it happens when everyone pulls there weight.

Our president likes to talk about leveling the playing field and making things fairs. The problem with that is you can’t make ‘fair’. Even if there were a way to make everyone come out of the womb with the same tools as everyone else there would be those who excelled and those who chose not to. So eventually the playing field would not be level because some would choose to be more successful. All things being fair. Fairness isn’t sustainable without pulling others down.

I do agree that there are some things like Medicare and Social Security that need to be addressed right now. No matter who wins the election that we are finally talking about these programs is a good thing.

Which leads me to my conclusion which is ultimately it doesn’t make a huge difference who is in office. We have checks and balances in place so no matter how far right or left the pendulum swings it always swings back the other way. Usually some great gains have been made in the process.